Season Finale: beth Santos, Founder & CEO of Wanderful Calls from Boston

beth santos

Beth Santos is founder and CEO of Wanderful, a global community and lifestyle brand that specializes in helping all women travel the world. Wanderful reaches a diverse audience of over 100M each year through chapter events in 50 cities, an international home sharing network, global summits and small group trips, a thriving membership community, and dynamic online content and forums. She is the creator and host of the Women in Travel Summit, a leading event for women travel creators and industry, happening on two continents each year, and co-founder of #AtTheTable, a national dinner series and community for female founders. She is a graduate of the Kellogg School of Management and Wellesley College, and is an acclaimed thought leader in entrepreneurship and travel. She lives in Boston.

About Adventure Calls

From her quarantine to theirs, world-traveler and author of How To Move Abroad And Why It’s The Best Thing You’ll Do, Jessica Drucker, calls up travel experts to find out what they envision for the future of travel in a post-pandemic world. You can find Jessica at www.jessicadrucker.com, and sign up for expat and radical change coaching here.

Follow Jessica on Instagram @jessicavdrucker.

EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS

11:42 How Beth turned her travel blog into Wanderful, the world’s largest community for female + non-binary travelers.

14:23 What are the key issues in solo female travel.

17:54 What matters most to travelers now, during the pandemic.

21:01 Beth talks about her vision for the future of travel.

23:17 Beth perfectly defines travel, and why it can happen five minutes from home.

30:11 The shift in travel content creation.

32:53 Why 2020 is the year of innovation (spoiler: it has never been more necessary)

35:24 Exclusivity versus Inclusivity in the travel and tourism space.

Links mentioned in this episodE

Wanderful website, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter

Beth Santos website, Instagram.

Evita Robinson website, Instagram.

Gaby Bedford website, Instagram.

Martin Nick Lewis website, Instagram.

The Black Travel Alliance website, Instagram, Facebook.

About Adventure Calls

Full episode transcript

(transcription is automated, please excuse any errors)
Jessica Drucker: Hi, Beth, thanks so much for taking my call.

Beth Santos: Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to talk to you.

Jessica Drucker: I will boast a lot about you and say why you're amazing. But first of all, where are you right now? And how are you and your family doing health wise during this quarantine?

Beth Santos: I am in my house in Boston, Massachusetts, USA. And we are we are okay, everyone's healthy. We're just staying inside, going out on our patio, you know, just waiting it out as much as we can. My husband and I are both working from home, we have a three year old daughter, who needs the attention of eight adults. So there's not enough adult to child ratio right now. suffering and about to kill each other, but we're just being honest here. Okay.

Jessica Drucker: And is this the longest you've ever gone without traveling?

Beth Santos: Oh, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, absolutely.

Jessica Drucker: You are the founder of Wanderful, which is the world's largest community of female travelers, and one of the coolest travel communities out there. Can you talk a little bit about Wanderful and what Wanderful means right now, when the world isn't traveling?

Beth Santos: I love that question. Because I think you know, where Wanderful was founded and how it was founded, is so relevant, actually, in a lot of ways to where we are today. So the quick story is that I started Wanderful as a blog, actually, I was traveling in a small country called south to my in principle, which is off the west coast of Africa. And I was 22 years old. And I realized that, you know, as a young woman traveling on her own, the travel industry doesn't really talk to women, where there are still a lot of questions that women have when they travel that are not part of common dialogue when we talk travel. And I found that to be absolutely absurd, because I think, you know, as we know, now, or at least I know, it's part of my everyday 80% of travel decisions are made by women, two out of every three travelers are female, and yet the feelings that I felt on this real first, you know, life changing trip for me, or that of isolation, and not really knowing who else was out there, and not really realizing how many other women were traveling and, and I wanted to create a space to answer questions that were really typical women's experiences abroad, whether it's understanding gender norms, understanding cultural expectations, understanding biology, you know, that that many women have to go through, and having answers to those things, but then also building a support network and a community. Because sometimes it isn't just about you know, how to find birth control, or abroad or something like that. It's also just about the fundamental feelings that we have going out into the world and realizing that women are treated differently Wherever we go, and kind of understanding that and reconciling that. And so we wanted to create a space where women could really support one another and share those experiences and be around people who have felt those feelings before as well. And that actually is the thing that really transcends all of it today, you know, with us not being able to travel, there is more and more of that need for women for whom travel is the essential part of who they are, to be able to connect with one another and to talk about those stories and to think about their travel planning and to answer questions and to build that global mindedness even when we're not going anywhere.

Jessica Drucker: That's, that's right. And also, you know, I can we talk a little bit about the solo female travel space, because I, you know, I was doing like some googling and I, before I talking to you, and I sarcastically googled solo male travel, because I feel like men, men don't Google that before they go on a trip, but women would definitely if they were going alone into it. So So is safety. The biggest difference between what a solo male and a solo female traveler have to think about or as you're saying, it's also how we're treated. You know, where to get tampons. It's not a country that has a lot of them. I mean, what are sort of the main issues for a solo female traveler?

Beth Santos: Well, I think the the media will want you to think that safety is the number one issue and I think that was one of my actually biggest hang ups is that you know, there are really two predominant narratives that we tell women when they're preparing to go out and travel by themselves. The first is what I like to call the Eat Pray Love narrative, which is like you're going to have this amazing adventure and you're going to have self discovery and you're going to meet some gorgeous Brazilian and like in gorging pasta and just you know, have the most amazing time and then the other narrative is the you're gonna get murdered in a dark alley and your family will never hear from you again, narrative. Oh, and it'll be your fault. And I think those are the two things that we're telling women. But we're not really explaining that there's an in between. and that when we talk about things like safety, you also have to keep in mind, first of all, if any of us are traveling alone, we're more vulnerable. That's just that's how it is, regardless of your gender, you know, and if you are going into a place whose culture is not your own, yes, you also have to be more aware, because you don't know the cultural nuances. You don't know the resources, you don't know, you know, what your options are. And so I think, in general, when we're out by ourselves, we have to be more cautious. But I also think that there's a lot of kind of social pressure put on women to not go out by themselves because they're, you know, more particularly vulnerable, or, you know, because I think there's a lot of messaging that we're still getting that women should be with our families and with our partners, and not going out on our own. And there's this whole new trend right now for mothers actually, called like, Mom patients, and it's basically reclaiming this like, even though you're a mother doesn't mean that you can't travel. So it doesn't mean you're a bad mom, if you travel solo. So anyway, I'm getting into it. But I think safety is one of those things. But it's certainly not the only thing that women have to think about, nor should we think about

Jessica Drucker: well, and so what do you hear? So you your community is actually really large? At this point, I think you're something like 10 or 15,000, stronger? How big is your community? Right now? Would you say,

Beth Santos: we have 45,000, in our wider community, I was that really across our chapters 50 chapters all around the world, we have an online network, a member community. And then we also have this really neat community of creators and influencers because for us, it's not just about helping prepare women for the world, but also making the world more accessible and inclusive to women. And, and so we do a lot of work in helping women who are creators and builders in the space actually create meaningful travel companies, and challenging the industry to do better. So in that way, our reach Actually, we calculate that every year, we're reaching about 60 million people, when we're calculating all of the impact that we're having on our creators on industry members who are participating in our activities. mapping.

Jessica Drucker: All from one travel blog started in 2000. Right?

Beth Santos: That's right. thousand nine are a whole other deal, my friend.

Jessica Drucker: Yes, yes. Right. Oh, well, no. So So okay, so sorry, you're a 40,000 plus strong community. And so what did you hear from them? So right now, for example, when you're taking away a lot of the actual like, I'm getting on a plane next week? What Where should I go eat in wherever? What is the community talking about now? and What? What are you seeing seeing as the salient issues for women travelers, like in this moment in time?

Beth Santos: Well, I think in this moment in time, the question is, are we traveling at all? And should we be traveling at all, you know, and that's so when, when everyone started going into quarantine, you know, a lot of our existing activities stopped, of course, our conference that was planned for May, was pushed our chapter, our local chapter events, we said, you know, you have to stop stop meeting for a little while. And I think it took us a minute to kind of take a step back and go, you know, is it our events that are most important in our community? Or is it the fact that we're providing a space where women can feel safe and supported and where they can learn from one another and where they can, you know, it was funny, because, and I promise I'm getting to my point, the in January, I was speaking at the travel and adventure show, and I had this whole spiel about how travel only consists of three things, challenging your preconceptions, trying something new, and being comfortable with discomfort. And if you can experience those things, five minutes from your home, that is more of a travel experience, in my opinion, than going 1000 miles away and not feeling those things. And so I think it was kind of funny, because it was like the world sort of saying, okay, Beth, prove it. You know, can you have a fundamentally life changing travel experience, without going anywhere, and I think that's, you know, allowed our community to do a lot of pivoting, we really focused in our online membership, because we had all these women who are kind of like, you know, being out in the world is who I am, what am I going to do if I can't do that? And so we started introducing things like global cooking classes and language circles. And, and now we're seeing a lot more of that how to travel. So I think people are kind of asking the question of, you know, one, should I go and two, how do I do it? We talk a lot in our community about safety and responsible travel, you know, we're encouraging people to make choices that are right for them and not just get out there because they miss traveling. And so I think, you know, that's, that's the main thing that's coming up for us right now is can we do it? Should we do it? How can we do it? And and I don't even know if there's so Much of that focus on gender, per se, I think because at least for our community, because they're already, you know, they're already loving to loving travel anyway, if anything, what I'm seeing is a stronger desire for some of these women who maybe would not have contemplated travel before to actually get out there because they're realizing, I have less time than I thought I did. Or I might not have the opportunities that I thought I would have. I, you know, maybe was not going on a trip because I was worried about what my family would say, or what my friends would say. But now, screw it, I'm going.

Jessica Drucker: Right. So rather than fear base, it's actually like an urgency to see the world in a way that maybe they wouldn't have before. Absolutely, yeah. So can you? Do you have any answers about those things? So you're asking a lot of questions around Can Can we travel? When can we travel? what's safe? What's not? What are you hearing people talk about in terms of safety? Or when you can travel or, you know, anything like that?

Beth Santos: Well, and I think, you know, everyone wants that, that golden answer, right? And unfortunately, we're all different. And I think our where we are geographically is different. Our own health situation is different. We haven't even talked about financial situation, the number of people who have lost jobs, or been furloughed, or, you know, have had pay cuts? And how does that make travel accessible to them? I think we look at travel as a luxury, and in many ways, it is a luxury. And so there are all of these different factors that we each need to take in, personally, who lives at home with me, you know, who might I be infecting? By going out and taking a 10 hour plane ride somewhere? And so I think in that way, for everybody, the answers are different. Now we're at a place where people are saying, you know what, either I'm gonna plan on traveling this year, or I'm just going to straight up not even think about it and take it off my, my options, like, I'm not even going to keep going into that question again, of can, or should I do it, but for those who are I'm seeing a lot more, you know, domestic travel, road trips, going outside, camping, you know, natural parks, when those open, if they're open, not a whole lot of international travel, or playing travel, not a whole lot of cruise travel right now. But just things that are getting people outside that they can do in, you know, by themselves, or in small groups. So those are some of the trends we're seeing too is, you know, solo travel becoming more of an option if for anything out of necessity, or small group travel being something that someone's actually thinking about, because they're going okay, I'm only traveling with, you know, 678 other people, some of these big travel companies are limiting their groups now to like six or seven people. And, and I'm able to just go and actually do it without spending a whole bunch of time planning it. So I can just fulfill that bucket list fantasy that I have in a small group as safely as possible and kind of leave the logistics to somebody else.

Jessica Drucker: Got it? Yeah, it's it is really interesting that it is black and white. And I and I'm seeing that a lot as well that some people are just cannot wait to travel. And some people are just like, you know what, like, maybe not this year. Yeah, but I love what you say about the three travel is really only about three things. Can we just like underline those by saying those again?

Beth Santos: Yeah, so travel only consists of three things, challenging your preconceptions, being comfortable with discomfort, getting in a place of discomfort, and trying something new trying something you haven't done before, quite in that way.

Jessica Drucker: That can be really anywhere that can take place. And

Beth Santos: that's the thing that is so important. I mean, there are places I know, five minutes walk from my house that I could go to and feel those things. Actually, I just felt it going a couple months ago, I went to get my haircut at the Latino beauty salon, which is all full Spanish speaking, nobody in there speaks English. And I went and got my haircut. And it was like the best experience for me because I was learning and I was immersed in someone else's culture. And it was literally literally a three minute walk from my house. Yeah, you know, so sometimes we think that these learning opportunities have to happen all the way from the other side of the world. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's just about learning each other. And, you know, you can I think there are so many ways that you can do that. Even if you don't live in a place that's super populated.

Jessica Drucker: Exactly, right. Well, I love that and I think I'm going to just like have that printed on my wall somewhere because those are amazing. And so here we go back because you know that I think you're amazing. So I'm gonna do a little bragging about you before I ask you my next question, but um, so let's see. I have a list of all of your amazing accomplishment accomplishments. You have been recognized as a Boston Oh 50 on fire Chicago scholars 30 535. young leader making an impact. Obama well, Obama's administration named you one of the top 100 travel bloggers You are also the co founder of the I guess, hashtag appa table initiative that brings together female founders. And you have an MBA from Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. No big deal, you know, just some amazing credibility. But of all those things. I mean, and I'm saying that so that you know, you, I want to establish you, obviously, you're a leader in this space, and you're not just an entrepreneur, you're like an entrepreneurs, entrepreneur, right? You really want to support other female founders, which is what I do love about you. But I think with What makes you so inspiring for people. And I really mean it is your persistence, it is your willingness to stick through stick to something all the way through. And so I did want to hear you talk a little bit about being a founder at Wanderful like, what what it took for you to grow that and what it means to you to, to stick through with a travel startup because I think of all the of all the types of startups there are in this space travel startups are notoriously difficult to start even harder to get through to the end. And right now, what a challenge it is, in this particular space, where we see that travel is the most vulnerable of all industries right now.

Beth Santos: Yeah, and, and I'll be honest, when I first started Wanderful, I really didn't, I didn't come at it from the perspective of I'm going to start a business. Here's the you know, and now that I have my MBA, I know that many businesses are started with this fundamental question of what is the problem I'm trying to solve that is, you know, absolutely necessary, right with problems, not what it's medicine, not vitamins. And, but I wasn't, I wasn't at that point. You know, basically, I had just felt this, this feeling of, of loneliness, of wanting to belong to something bigger than myself of wanting to share my story of wanting to share other people's stories of loving to write. And so I just started blogging, and that was in you know, don't forget, as you know, blogging in 2009, was like five journaling. It was not like journalism, right? I was. So this was just me kind of being I mean, you can even look, I challenge people to look in, like the depths of our blog, which we have not cleaned out. And you can see all sorts of weird stories that I published, like about my own personal life.

Jessica Drucker: And do it in the shadows.

Beth Santos: Yeah. Yeah, some fun, have some fun. Um, but that's what blogging was. And so you know, I think basically, what was interesting about how we started as a company is that we didn't start with the sort of problem in this proposed solution. We started with an audience, we started with a customer base, you know, we started with that community, we started with people who were feeling these same feelings that we were having that identified with that. And then we started thinking, Okay, well, you know, what can we do for you? What kinds of things can we create for you, and I think that has always made some betas really different in that way, where we've kind of always started first with the the women that we're serving, and then tried to kind of build products and services that help them. And that's allowed us to really innovate over the years. And, you know, it's been wild, you see, and we've done a lot of stuff. We've felt conferences, we've got a festival coming out. We have an award show, we still have our blog, we have all of our chapters, but I think that's given us a little bit more of a space to be innovative. And people always ask me, they're like, you know, do you have a side hustle? Are you like doing other stuff, and I'm going Wanderful is my main hustle and my side hustle because it because we're always innovating within the company, itself. It's not just one thing or a one trick pony. You know, we're always building new things there

Jessica Drucker: now. So but I did Wait, you know, I was obviously reading about you a little bit. Not that I don't know you already very well. But I was reading about you. And you said something awesome. A long time ago, you you were talking in some article about that you when you graduated, it was in the year 2008, which, you know, was the last time that things were, you know, super bad in the economy, at least in the US. You were doing a paid PR internship and unpaid internship at the Portuguese embassy and you were waiting tables. And what you said was, you said you were always doing one thing that inspired you. And one thing that paid the bills, and I think that's so smart, and that people need to include that in the narrative because you need to stay inspired and people are worried about what if I go all in? I can't take care of myself, though. So do one thing that inspires you. And one thing that pays the bills? And that was in 2008, during the recession? How do you think that holds up right now? Because right now, obviously, we have a health pandemic, and then we have the protest on top of the world feels like it's changing so much right now. How do you feel like that idea applies now to founders, or people who want to start something now in 2020?

Jessica Drucker: I mean, I think you know, what's interesting, actually, is we you know, when the pandemic really started to rear its head, we found a lot of people joining our Creator community so our member community has two tiers to grapplers and creators and the creators get all sorts of stuff from access to coaching to mastermind calls to courses to kind of improve their, their businesses and their content. And I was surprised, but we saw a whole bunch of creators joining and I was like, why are all these people join it? Like, aren't they trying to make money right now? Well, they which, to that point, it takes a while when you're starting something to make money, right? So it's like, why are they focused on this right now, if you know, they're made? Well, you know, the reality is that many people have lost their jobs. And they're going, Okay, this is time for me to make a shift, the universe is basically told me I need to make a shift. So I'm going to focus on something I love, and I'm going to give myself some time to do that. And I think that's okay, too. You know, I think the people who are who have the self determination to sit down and say, I'm gonna try this thing for this amount of time. And if it doesn't work, this is my exit strategy. This is my alternative, this is my other option, because I think it's when we, we string ourselves along on this promise we've made to ourselves, that's when it gets dangerous, right? Because now you're like, I thought it would be here, but I'm not, but I'm gonna keep pushing well, to what end. So I think, you know, the point I was trying to make in that article, which I think is still true, is you got to take care of yourself, and especially for for women, and for anyone who who is not a sis white male, you know, university educated, think there's a lot of this, in the startup world think like, okay, you know, you're just going to live on ramen for a few years and work, you know, 20 hours a day. And if you have a family, if you have, you know, anyone else that you're trying to support in your home, you can't do that. And so having that expectation of like, Oh, that's just what startup life is. That's unrealistic. And we're not doing ourselves or society any favors, to expect that kind of behavior. from people who are building businesses, we have to recognize that you have to build a business, and you have to take care of yourself at the same time. And if that means working part time at Starbucks, and you're 45 years old, like, that's totally, that's great. You know, whatever you do, to keep that hustle alive is great. And if you are fortunate enough to have some savings that you can fall back on, then that's fine, too. Just make sure that you give yourself a deadline, you're not putting yourself in a position of frustration, because that's going to just weigh even more on your business.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, definitely. Do you think that 2020 in all of this where things feel really rocky for for many, do you see this as being a time? I mean, and I've said this before on the podcast, but 2008 is a time when we saw some of the world's biggest businesses come out after this, right like Airbnb, Lyft, Uber, all those companies? Do you sort of envision the same thing happening as a result of the pandemic?

Beth Santos: Hundred percent? Yeah, hundred percent? I think, yep. I think people have, I think even in our own, I've seen a lot of companies that, you know, for, for any number of reasons have had to pull back on certain operations they weren't expecting to, and had had basically had more time than they thought they would have. Because the thing they thought they would be focusing on this year, they're not. And in that way, it becomes the year of innovation. You know, we there's a reason why we come up with our best ideas when we're like in the shower, you know, because we're not thinking about 1000 things at once. Right, able to take a minute for ourselves. And I feel like this is a year where a lot of businesses are able to just take a minute for themselves. And what I hope that means that they're going to do is they're going to learn how to be better, right? They're going to think about some of these, these topics that are really important, whether it's the women who travel space, whether it's sustainability, whether it's diversity and inclusion, and things that maybe they didn't have, I'm using air quotes here that you can see the like time for, you know, now they're kind of like, this is an unendurable thing. This is the time to really be focusing on that and making our company not just working harder, but working better. So yeah, I definitely see a lot of innovations coming out this year.

Jessica Drucker: Yeah, and I and I really do hope that's the case for sure. You brought up something, though, that I do actually want to ask you about, because I really want to talk about the idea of inclusivity and exclusivity, because so Wanderful women, travel space, it is exclusive in that way because it is for women. So but you though I do want to say you have queer people at the highest ranks within Wanderful, you have an MC at wits, who I believe is queer, who's on stage the whole time during all of your conferences, and a lot of your you know, big keynote speakers are black or Latina. And so I would say that you're also very inclusive in within your exclusive community. Yeah. And just also saying in addition to that, there are other exclusive spaces. I'm sure you have picked up what happened with the wing with Audrey Gelman, which was the CO working space specifically for women. That sort of imploded on her in terms of her ability to To be to have a more diverse staff and listen to to their needs. So talk to me a little bit, because I think you're in a great position to do so about being exclusive, but also being incredibly inclusive and how you promote diversity within Wanderful. And then obviously, within your, your community of travelers who, who may or may not identify or feel that Wanderful represents them.

Beth Santos: You know, I really like this question about exclusivity versus inclusivity. And I think you've nailed hit the nail on the head, in terms of how you're explaining what Wanderful does, and the fact that we do have incredible focus on making sure that we're representing different voices, not just because, you know, it's like the right thing to do. But also, because this is the world we're in where women are, you look on Google, and you look up travelers, and you find a lot of white men and women are feeling excluded from the travel industry. And we also do a lot of work to highlight other voices that have been really marginalized by travel, whether it's race, whether it's related to body type, whether it's related to physical ability. And I think that's really important for us to kind of, you know, take the experience that we've had, you know, being women recognizing that we all have different intersectionalities that that interweave in here as well, but our experiences women being overlooked by travel, and actually taking that to other communities, and and talking about how that experiences for them as well. At the same time, I think it's really important for us to note that Wanderful when we first started, you know, a lot of that was, you know, we were community by and for women, we were about supporting women. In that way, we've actually changed a lot of our language to really focus on Women and Gender diverse people. And we also welcome everyone, we actually have male members in our community, who are, you know, who are members who are part of a part of the organization. And the thing that's different about that is, we will never stray away from this focus on Women and Gender diverse people, we think everyone needs to be part of that conversation. So when you come to weds, or you come to one of our, you know, industry focused events, you're going to see a room of all different people of hopefully all different genders, all different ethnicities, talking about this topic related to women. And we hope that sis men are part of that conversation, because it's essential for them to be part of the conversation, it's essential for all of us to be part of the conversation. That being said, it doesn't mean that our focus is going to be you know, helping everyone travel the world, including sis men, it's going to be helping people who have been marginalized by travel, get out there. And it's not just by giving them the tools to do it. It's also by examining some of the systemic issues in travel, and what do we need to change to make it better? So are we exclusive in terms of our focus? Absolutely. And it's, you know, not exclusive. It's saying, we we have a focus right on a specific area, we are trying to solve a very specific problem, this is, this is a huge problem, and we need more people to address it. But at the same time, everybody is part of the solution. And we all have to band together to be part of it. So I think it's really important to keep that in mind that, you know, we've been doing even more stuff, just really encouraging people. Yes, this is a room full of a lot of women, because women have experienced, you know, the things that we're about to talk about. But that doesn't mean that you're not part of the answer here. We want you to be there. So But yeah, I think the question is, is fascinating and is important, because like you said, there are a lot of organizations that have kind of staunchly put their feet down and said, No, this is an organization for women. And you know, whatever woman means I think like that, that itself. There's just so many different doctrines that can go, but and then they've been, you know, they've gotten in trouble for it, right? Because it's because they are discriminating because it's exclusive. And but I also think that there's an important thing to be said about, you know, discrimination and exclusivity for people who have been marginalized, and we need to create spaces that lift people who have been left out and and allow them to rise. And so. So, you know, on the one hand, I think it's really important for us to all be part of that conversation. On the other hand, I think we also need to be challenging what we're talking about when we're talking about discrimination, when these groups are really just trying to get to the level of equality. You know, it's interesting, I was literally just reading an article this morning that was published in, I think it was in Conde Nast. And they were talking about how, you know, historically the predominant narrative of people of color was that they were the locals and not the travelers. That that was really fascinating, you know, and true. Um, but I also know that there are a lot of really incredible people of color and black people and black women in our community that are just, you know, incredible thought leaders and and travelers and you know, a few of them off the top of my head include Vito Robinson of nomadic tribe tribe she's was a keynote speaker at lit 16 are women in travel summit? Oh, Nico Raymond. of Oh, Nico, the traveler. Also one Gaby Bedford of packs light is really incredible Gen Z creator Nadine Right is a physician who actually was an expert for us one Coronavirus was kind of really starting to grow here in the US to give some really important feedback. Oh, my gosh, there's just there's so many outdoors, the diva? Who else am I missing? You know, I think the the best thing that we can do if you're in a place where you're kind of like, I don't know, you know, who is out there is just open your eyes actually Martin, Nick Lewis, and a number of people, some of which, who I mentioned, recently launched the black travel Alliance, which if you haven't checked it out, you absolutely should they have an Instagram handle, of course, they have a website. But on their Instagram, they recently challenged every member of the travel industry to pull up with their stats on, you know, how many black people are they employing? What issues have they contributed to so far? What are some of the changes that they're making? And they're publishing, like, day by day, what these what these companies are saying. And I think, you know, having leaders like that, that are not only talking about their own experiences, but also really pushing the industry to do better and to be thoughtful about that. That just changes the whole narrative for all of us.

*Transcribed by https://otter.ai AI transcription service. Please excuse any errors